Come on in the water's fine
I’m beginning some new product development and want to include you in the process. I’m looking for your thoughts, ideas and comments about waders. This is a conversation that I’d like you to consider open and ongoing. If you know someone who has an opinion on this topic please encourage him or her to join the discussion too. Comments can be broad or specific (zone focused). Tell me what you like, hate and wish for. Tell me a story if that helps convey needs more clearly. Come on in the water’s fine. Photo by Jeff Leopold
122 comments:
I know I am not a Designer but I must throw in my 2 cents...
Please don't put a zipper in the front like SIMMS. Don't follow that possible crazy trend. That's a recipe for failure and then of course I would have to deal with all the issues of them coming back ;).
I'm going to second RJ, re: zippers. All a zipper is is a built in failure point. What I'd like to see, in Zone 2, would be a pocket on the inside of the upper chest (not sure if most waders have these, mine don't). Built in gravel guards are also a nice touch in that it saves me from having to buy another piece of gear, they are one less thing to lose/ leave on the tailgate. Also, and not sure if this is technically feasible or not, would it be possible to add "sacrificial" nylon codura to the front of the legs, from the ankle to mid thigh, for protection during bushwhacking, kneeling, falls, etc
The first set of neoprene waders I got was years ago from the O'Neil wetsuit company.
They had a really nice shoulder strap system made from neoprene and velcro. It was easy to wear, wide - so that it distributed the load across the bulk of the shoulder, versus the narrow straps of today.
Most importantly, the resulting waders were higher, warmer, and if you went arse over teakettle into the river, shipped no water inboard. Only your shirt collar and armpit area would get damp.
I would love to get a set of waders with this arrangement again.
Design them with the realization that many anglers wear their chest waders as "waist waders" a large part of the time. Some waders are better than others at handling this reality.
My other suggestion? Sell the waders with a few pinhole leaks already in place.
This short circuits the agonizing wait for the inevitable first pinhole leak.
It’s like trying to slowly work your way into a cold swimming pool. Just dive in and get it over with.
See how helpful the blogosphere can be?
Make waders to fit real people. Some people such as myself have a 60" chest and only a 36" waiste. So for me to get a pair of waders I have to by a pair that has a 50+ in waist to get a pair that will fit my chest. Also, when buying a pair of boot foot waders, just because you have a big chest doesn't mean you have huge feet! Let people choose the foot size to correspond with the the rest of there measurements. I am sure that I am not in the only one who is tired of wearing a size 13 shoe when you are only a size 11.
On another front, a good camoflage pattern would extend your market far beyond fisherman.
Simm's had one on their debut, I wore it until it fell apart many years later.
I've been using Patagonia’s waders for several years now. I'm a very happy customer and I put LOTS of time on the water...
1. Seams around the boot foot -- where the wader meets the boot foot. These seams have now twice started to slowly leak. While I am fairly sure that you guys will replace them a 2nd time -- given Patagonia's SUPER stand behind their product warranty... whatever we can do to improve these seams would be great.
2. Fit. My waders fit fine w/ just the wading belt but I have a long torso and the hike up w/ the suspenders. I think longer and more adjustable suspenders would help.
3. Boot foot sizes. I know its a costly decision for a manufacturer, but varying sizing for different size feet would be nice. I have size 13 feet and w/ a thick sock the feet get a bit tight.
4. Look at separating the wader, boot foot and gravel gards as Simms is doing w/ their travel waders. It makes the waders easier to get into, pack and components may be mixed and matched, i.e., it sizing on the boot foot neo-socks is not "Standard" for a particular size of wader. It is also nice if you start off a day needing waders and it gets hot and want to wet wade.
5. Better pocket design(?). Perhaps a external-ish pocket and maybe a sub pocket specifically for keys.
make the ankle/shin area wider so my pants don't slide so far up my leg and when they do there would be enough room for me to reach down to push them down
loose fit waders----- I tend to rip my crotch seams due to a little "sag" , more "guide pant" style waders for the casual day of fishing
It would be great to see lighter waders. I'm not talking about lightening the average pair of waders, but a backcountry version of waders that sacrificed a little durability for weight (say down to 2 lbs), would be great. I could go 5 years and only wear a backcountry pair of waders 10-15 times, so the durability is less of an issue. This would also be nice for a pair of boots. Maybe getting a pair that weighed closer to 20 oz.
Hmmmmmmm . . .
1) I like my Patagonias, only suggestion would be for better built-in gravel guards. On the last two pairs I've owned they've come up short, literally. Add a few extra inches of length so they're not constantly unclipping and riding up.
2) A word on style. I prefer loose, casual, and relatively plain, clean lines and colors as opposed to nut-hugging, multi-colored, and full of useless bells and whistles. I sampled a pair of Cloudveil wading pants last season. Felt like fly fishing in a pair of high-end ski/snowboard pants. Excellent fit and material selection.
1. Make the knee area and the crotch area from stretchable fabric for easy kneeling and maneuverability.
2. Make the foot area aasy to slip on and off as sometimes one has to step on the heel to pull tha waders off and that over time damages the neoprene at the heel.
Very good group of comments everyone. The humour is appreciated too. Let me try to address a bunch of things in one swoop if I can as they relate to the current Patagonia Watermaster ll and Light waders and the groups comments:
1) Both these styles use a proprietary fab./barrier pkg. that actually does a good job in the case of pin holes. The Hydrostorm barrier is elastomeric and does have some "self healing" qualities. The barrier has the capability to recover, similar to the way rubber soles close up after a sheet metal screw is removed (see studded sticky post). This is not the case with some other barriers which I will not name at this time. Other barriers without elastic qualities will always have a pin hole once punctured. I'm sticking with this fab./barrier pkg. for now.
2) Zippers worry me. I've tested several and my faith has been shaken either by leaks, the stiffness they create or just plain weight. I like the boldly simple system of internal suspenders and a roll down function. I can provide pix of the various heights achieved with the current Watermaster ll if anyone wants to see them (even pee height). The Watermaster Light can turn into a waist high as well due to a different suspender arrangement.
3) The gravel guards have been lengthened on the current wader models because they were too short and snug. The improvement is immediately noticable.
4) The new Watermaster ll has an improved pattern in which the inseams have been moved out of the wear zones (inside the legs). Long walkers were rubbing the thread crown down and this new positioning eliminates that problem.
5) Reinforcement fabric has been focused to just the seat and knee zones on the new Watermaster ll waders. This makes the mobility much better than the previous version. This also helps avoid stiff areas.
6) The overall wader fit has been changed. The new Patagonia waders have a more noticable difference between sizes and lengths. We now fit the range of anglers better, including the NBA fisherman and WWF chested angler. Frank, please check this out (king) and tell me if you fit.
7) Booties have received a lot of attention. The grading and construction are better. I am still looking into improving the point where the wader and bootie interface. Others have had occasional leaks in this area. I'm looking at ways to smooth this out going forward. I am also working on custom bottie capability so stay tuned.
8) Stretch fabric is of interest and is in testing. Stretch poses it's own set of issues but for now things are looking pretty good.
9) Note that both ll's and lights are almost tonal. This aesthetic seems in line with some of the comments. Everyone is moving toward stark color blocking. For now I'm sticking with a more subtle approach.
10) Can the suspenders get more comfortable? The answer is yes so work is being done to achieve this. Can the pocket get better? Yes. I'm working on it too.
Ok, that's enough for now. Let the conversation continue. Thanks again everyone.
BigSkyTaku: Zippers are great for dry suits, but on waders? Fugetaboutit. Two pairs of waders stand out in the last twenty years for me, a pair of O'Neils (neoprene) and my current Simms (going on three years). Both have lasted long days/years with no leaks. Two other friends have had problems with bootie leaks, so working on that is prime for fixing. The roll down funtion on the Patagonias is great, and if you are working on the size and fitting, that's what I have the most trouble with. Wide shoulders, narrow waist (not as narrow as some years ago!) and large quads (too many years of football and hockey), so looking for a "king" fit without having it be a Zeppelin around the waist has been pretty bleak. Also, I second thinking about having some made in a camo pattern. I wear my waders fishing and for waterfowl hunting in warm weather. It would be nice to have only one pair to cover both, plus cut down on the impact to the environment in manufacturing. And finally, keep up the great work!
Thanks for the comments Tobin. Let me know your measurements so I can understand what might fit you best (height, waist, chest, inseam and foot size).
In this age of alarms & "smart" keys...I'd suggest making the pocket waterproof.
I second Jared.
A waterproof zipper pouch would be a spledid addition.
How about Hip Waders?
Is there a market for this?
I'll second a few things, just for the record:
1. a waterproof interior pocket, smallish, for keys (or maybe a cellphone --- booo!)
2. A *better* exterior pocket. Simms went too far on the G3 (and I won't get started on the terror that is the G4!). A microfleece lined pocket big enough for both hands or a medium flybox. A place to clip some hemos and/or pin a retractor.
3. I DOUBLE second the idea of being able to order custom booties. Not even "custom" but say I want a medium bootie on a pair of XL King waders --- mix 'n' match from existing parts.
4. Lighter is better. Sure, tough is good, too, but I do more hiking (in and out of the water) than scraping and sliding and bushwhacking through thorns.
thanks for starting this discussion!
Steven
Steve,
I would like to second strongly what has been said about that queer zipper trend that is going on. Do not zip up your new waders. The sealed zipper could however be used to include a truely 100% waterproof breastpouch (als suggested earlier). That would be an asset. I'm now introducing a Simms watertight mobile and keys pack into a Patagonia breast pocket. Cumbersome and tricky :-)
I was taking a more closer look at this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/airtaxi/434103695/
Do you per chance have anymore comprehensible photos showing the Watermaster II (or any other Patagonian wader for that matter) in its various stages from chest to hip wader? Already this one shows nicely the benefits of the double push buttons (the second pair being deep inside the wader). I would think you could communicate these handy features more clearly on the Patagonian website, don't you agree? Also this is a feature that could be develloped further in future waders I believe. I find it very pratical and useful. Again: tall persons can wade way deeper than the average flyfisher and are prone to roll down the torso half of the wader wherever and whenever possible. I can do streams with a hipwader my buddy cannot negociate without a good chestwader.
I found your photo of flyfishers using a ladder and that brought a big smile on my face :-)
Thanks,
Taco
kneepads for stalking wary trout. a removable foam kneepad could slid up into an extra layer of tough fabric over the knee if the bottom seam of the extra fabric is left with the center portion un-stiched. I think Carhart work pants have this option.
I agree with most of what everyone said...and I fished in my Pati Wadermasters yesterday, which was stellar! I have had them for a couple of years and absolutely love them.
But a couple of comments...I have a wear pattern going on the inside of my gravel guards - I think from rubbing together as I walk. Good mountaineering pants have a reinforced area here to guard against crampon rub. May be an idea for those who walk in their waders a lot.
I am a tall (6'1") individual with an athletic build (slim but not skinny, muscular). I would like a more form-fitting fit and would be especially attracted to the stretch fabric mentioned above. I do a lot of kneeling and crawling along small streams, so that flex would be great. I also carry a point and shoot camera and techie keys, so the waterproof pocket is a great idea.
One thing, sorta unrelated to waders, that I would like to suggest are fleece pants with stirrups. Nothing bugs more than pulling on waders and having your fleece pants skootch up. I know Simms makes a set, but I would like to give them as little of my money as possible. With Pati's wool line, a set of AxuWool stirruped tights would be totally cool! Something to think about.
Sinjin
I love the ability to convert my Watermasters into waist highs, but I'd love a small clip at the top to hook onto the shoulder straps when I am wearing them chest high- just something to keep the waders there without having to cinch down the top.
I'm also going to second the suggestion of "customizable" bootie/wader combos. I wear a Patagonia medium but have a size 13 foot- My last pair of Watermasters were XL's to keep from killing my feet, but they look like a circus tent on me.
I could go either way on the "handwarmer" pocket- it's great for a flybox when traveling light, but I just put my hands inside my waders when I actually want to warm my hands up.
-Matt
Knee pad comment noted Anon. I'm curious what others think about a feature like this.
Sinjin, good to know that your original Watermasters are getting the job done. Gravel guard wear point noted. Extra attention will be paid to inside ankle abrasion.
Regarding fit, as stated in my previous comments, the new Watermaster ll has had a fit revision. I'd be curious to know your thoughts are on this as it relates to your "form fit" desire. I'm 6'0" with a trim build (185lbs). I fished this morning in a production pair of ll's (medium regular). This size fits me like a glove. I can also wear a large reg. and that size might be my choice for more layered up conditions. Let me know if you can try on a few new wader sizes. I'd like to get your feedback on the ll's.
Last comment is on the stirrups. This year we introduced our new Insulator Pants. While exploring new insulation fabrics for a basic under-wader pant we discovered some interesting things. Many of the newer fabrics had “hard faces” or high lycra content. The “hard face” which does allow layering fabrics to slide over it didn’t actually slide very well against wader scrim. Fabrics with high lycra content didn’t dry very quickly. We took another look at our tried and true double-sided 6 oz. Fleece fabric and found that it worked extremely well when put up against the slide and dry criteria. We worked on a leg taper that would hug the lower leg/ankle and resist the ride-up problem. No stirrup required!
I wear these fleece pants regularly and don't have to pull my socks over the cuffs to keep them in place....but you can if you want. Give the new Insulator Pants a try. They’re made of eco-friendly, 51% recycled-polyester as well.
Thanks for joining in Matt. Can you expand on your clip/hook idea?
El P...
Thanks for the thoughts. I can say for certainty that the Wadermaster IIs are way better in terms of the trim fit I am looking for than my previous Orvis waders, which made me look like the Pilsbury Dough Boy...Maybe given the way the fabric is, a true 'form fit' will never really be possible, especially for those of us in places where we fish in the winter and need to layer underneath commonly (like Saturday when the water temp on the South Platte was 39 degrees...sheesh!) I will look into the Insulator Pants as well. This is a great discussion - I like that the Product people are getting input directly from the customer base, and in this case, many of the customers who actually USE the product, not just have it hanging in their garages.
Sinjin
Steve,
I just got off the Gray Reef after spending a week in the new Watermaster II.
Fantastic re-design all around. Things of note: I am almost 6'2"and wore the Medium Regular size all week. They fit perfect - the waist belt sat where I wanted it, the rise was appropriate and comfortable, as were the suspenders. The booties were comfortable and streamlined in my boots. PLEASE - no zipper! The
fully-snapped suspender system made nature's call easy to answer. Unsnapping the front of the suspenders also makes this newer design easier to pull on - a nice
touch. The beefier multi-pocket hung in the right spot when the waders were rolled down. The pocket provides adequate organized storage for fishing from a drift boat - a fly box, tippet, indicators, etc. Clean AND more effective.
On another note, this pair was more comfortable in a deep knee bend or crouched position - my last pair was pretty tight. I noticed immediately the first time I
tried them on as I always do a knee-bend to force out the air before clipping up the waist belt - great job there. The gravel guards were also improved. They stayed in place lower on my boot lacing (2nd lacing "X" from the bottom on my Riverwalkers) covering the laces completely and reducing line
hang-up.
Finally, I thought they looked great. Not that I go clubbing in my waders, but I thought the fabric contrast was a nice touch overall and set them apart.
My 2-cents.
Best,
Matthew O'Connor
www.mattyocandlaura.blogspot.com
Boulder, Colorado
El Pescador-
The clip I'm envisioning would be mounted on the inside of the wader right at the top edge and would have something on the inside of the clip surface to grip the suspender strap.
The clip I had in mind when I suggested it is the type used to control backpack straps, there's a picture of one here http://www.crumplerbags.com/Cart/Views/productpagev2/popupImage.php?img=/Cart/Resources/CartResources/207_res/b207_o10311_ai641.jpg&caption=CU-02A%20rear%20detail the clip is shown on the waist belt.
-Matt
www.mattboutet.com
It looks like blogger truncated the address of the page I tried to link to.
A picture of something similar can be found here(maybe):
http://www.backcountrygear.com/images/lekisecurityclip.jpg
-Matt
www.mattboutet.com
A thought on wading pants. My Army issue black fleece jumper stops at mid calf and they don't ride up at all. Plus they add that extra bit of insulation to the torso.
Matt, thanks for the link. Correct me if I'm wrong but you are looking for a way to secure the upper part of the wader when rolled down, correct?
Porter, I'm curious about the calf height on the army issue jumper. Why was the design meant to stop at one's calf?
El Pescador,
I'm actually looking for a way to secure the upper part of the wader when up. I don't really like cinching the drawcord at the top tight, which seemed like the only way to keep my old ones up there.
-Matt
p.s. We seem to fish a lot of the same areas, maybe I'll catch you out on the water and I can explain in person.
Got it Matt. I am looking at ways to improve the drawcord adjusment at the top of the wader. It actually works very well if you pre-set your desired closure. It's in the field where the system can be a bit more cumbersome when trying to do a quick adjust. Thanks for the follow up. If you are in my area please don't hesitate to call me. I'm in the book.
I have no firm idea why the Army designed it that way. My guess is that the Army loves clean lines above the boot (BDU pants are bloused with ties, bootlaces tucked in, socks rolled over boot tops, etc). I think it is a general safety issue, nothing to get caught up while jumping in and out of HMVEES, 5-tons, birds, etc. But I will say they work well with any type of booted activity, skiing, hiking, wading, etc. The only gripe I have with them is that they should be a tad bit more form fitting than what they are now at the calf.
Feedback on Anonymous' kneepads suggestion. A great idea I think! Not only for stalking on all fours. I like to kneel when talking pictures of the trophee fish only my buddy catches...I don not bow, I kneel for him. In the most ridiculous places, so pads would come in handy then too. As well as in in using your knees to negotiate a steep gravel bank. Which happens. A lot. When you're getting older.
Light, Light, Light make them light, the good trout and in deep backpacking distance
Thanks Porter. My assumption was that the calf high design was boot related....and wise.
Taco and Anon., I'm curious if aftermarket knee pads would be better than building them into waders. Tile setters and roofers use beefy versions to meet their all day/every day protection needs. Knee pads on the outside would also provide very good abrasion and puncture resistance....plus you can remove them. Thoughts?
Anon., light is my mantra. The gear we currently offer is some of the lightest in class. The Watermaster Light Wader weighs a touch more than 2lbs. I do weight comparrisons of competitors often and find that the current Patagonia waders combined with a pair of Riverwalker or Canyonwalker boots usually beats the competitive counterpart by pounds, not ounces. Light will continue to by the criteria.
A built in belt that can't fall off in the weeds and get left behind, like my last 3 wader belts would be great. A belt with a soft edge that doesn't dig into your side when bending over to release the "big pig" would be nice too.
Keep up the great work and thanks for letting us add our 2 cents.
Noted Anon. Check out the last two comments under the "Stripping Baskets" post. They apply to some your belt desires/needs.
1. Elastic on built-in gravel guards often is too tight. Makes slipping the foot in difficult. Perhaps inserting a covered zipper on the guard would allow the foot easy access. A hook at the end of the zipper could hook onto the laces.
2. Breathable feet. I suffer from cold feet and find my waders with breathable feet much warmer. My waders with neoprene feet make it hard to wear two pair of socks and don't slide into my boot with ease.
3. Chest pocket with zipper on the outside of wader for easier access. Or at least at the top of the current chest pocket so I don't have to flip it out to open.
4. double fabric over knees and the butt. Helps with crawling over boulders and going through briers.
5. I'm a woman and find the current sizing for women don't fit me. By the time I get the foot size big enough I'm needing to buy men's. Wouldn't mind waiting a little longer for delivery if I could custom order foot size and wader size.
6. Ok, I'm vain. But two colored waders make me look chopped up. I'm only 5'5".
7. And what the heck would I do with a zipper in front???
Thanks for asking.
Jan
Steve, aftermarket knee pads would be just as good as building them into waders. I just thought the design suggestion Anonymous gave were rather smart (you could choose not to insert the pads and still have a stronger fabric around the knee areas). Then again, if Patagonia designed a pair of adjustable and loose kneepads for breathable waders, I have no doubt they would sell across the current labels. I now use volleyball cushioned kneeguards inside the wader and those make you sweat that much more.
Lol @Jan's zipper remark.
Cheers, Taco
Comments noted Steelie Jan:
1) I agree that if gravel guards are too tight they become problematic. The Watermaster II and Light gg's are longer and a touch more relaxed than the previous specifications. I think we've found the sweet spot for our gg's. The zippered idea sounds similar to ski pants. I'll investigate the design potential but for the salt I'd be worried about a zip.
2) In 1999 we offered both fabric and neoprene feet. For many there were concerns about a fabric foot because of durability but I wonder how much of that was fact. Know that I'm investigating that option/addition again. Your comments about double socks though made me wonder about boot fit and circulation. Too tight a fit can often be the cause of less than optimal warmth levels, especially for hands and feet. I'd like to know what your sock combo is. Please advise.
3) Chest pocket design will evolve. Opening location suggestions appreciated.
4) More knee reinforcement noted. This seems to be a group wide suggestion.
5) I'm hot on the trail of having the ability to customize bootie to wader. I'm curious if you've been able to try either of the new women's waders? Bootie sizes were regraded. Let me know.
6) Agree on the chopped up look. That's why the new II's are practically tonal.
7) Brilliant comment!
Thank you SJ.
My 2 cents:
1. No zippers. They're waders. Eventually the wader will fail. No point in adding something to increase the likelihood of failure. Plus, I fail to see how these fancy zippers are going to save me any time on the stream. Maybe if it was just a zipper fly, but as was already pointed out, that isn't going to help our women fly fishers at all.
2. I agree on the gravel guards -- need to be snug but comfortable fit.
3. It's just cosmetic, but I too prefer soft natural wader colors, and no two tones. What the heck is with that new trend? They're waders! Make me blend in, not stand out.
4. Any reinforcement of the knees, bushwacking areas and seat are always welcome if it can be balanced with the desire for lightweight, comfort.
5. Personally, I don't care for the inside pockets, but if you're going to include one, I do like the idea of a small zippered, easy access keys pocket. Maybe put it offset to one-side (rather than dead-center) so you might be able to get to it without taking a vest off.
6. Feet/booties... I agree that the booty should be breathable. At the same time, I can attest that waders without neoprene feet can have wear problems at the seems of the booties. What I've found to be the best, most comfortable compromise is a gortex footed wader paired with sock combination(s) of choice + using a separate neoprene sock over the gortex bootie. I get sufficient breathability, added comfort due to the padding of the neoprene and I wear the inexpensive neoprene sock out rather than the waders. Also, using an external neoprene sock seems to fit much better than preformed, stiff neoprene wader booties. The way I've been using the gortex wader+ neoprene sock feels just like I'm in hiking boots.
7. The cinch and issue at the top of the waders... I currently do not own Patagonia waders because of the way the top of the waders fit -- and more importantly, tend to ride down. I understand what your comment about settting the cinch first, but that's just inconvenient and still doesn't work well. I wade deep. Primarily because I find the big fish are always out of reach and also that I'm 5' 5" (so I'm always deep!). I can't use waders that might dip or ride down at the top. I've found no other waders that do this like yours. I think it's because of your suspender system. As a fix, what about an approach similar to how some manufacturers build in adjustments for waists on pants? Have it so you can pull tight an adjustment on each side near the armpits. Easy access for adjustments. Make that adjustable strapping mechanism out of something elastic and it would probably be a comfortable fit.
8. Wading belt. I'd actually prefer an elastic wading belt of some kind. I too don't like the hard edges. I think something that could expand as you breath would be more comfortable as well.
9. And for reference, I think the L.L. Bean Gortex GQS waders are THE best wader made to date. The combination of comfort, weight and durability in my opinion is unmatched. The only issue I've ever found with them (I'm on my second pair and have worn this model for something like 8 years) is that the foot is Gortex. It's very comfortable but as I mentioned already, this type of wader has wear problems at the seems of the feet (primarily the heel). Once I figured out to combine it with a neoprene sock, the waders are pretty much unbeatable. I wear them year-round. I bushwack without second thought. I've even taken a number of falls down rocky banks in which somehow I've cut my leg but never actually punctured the wader.
10. Wader suspenders... The most comfortable I've found have again been from Bean. Check out their neoprene suspenders. They're broad so disperse the weight. They're light.
11. The calf-height wading pants is a great idea. I've tried the stirrup kind and while better than pants riding up, I think they make you stuff too much material down around your lower calf and ankle.
12. Custom-fits is a great idea, but only if it's economical enough for the masses.
Thanks John. Comment time investment appreciated and all content noted. For now here are just a couple of responses to particular points:
Your "ride down" comment (#7)concerns me. The cinch at the top of the Watermaster II's can create a very snug fit and with the Houdini Drawcord system there is no tag end exposed nor is there anything on the outside of the wader to catch line. Can any II users out there comment on this?
(#8) Check out our Stretch Wadeing Belt (standard on all models). It's stretch polyester (minimal water gain) and no hard edges. It's will be sold individually come July.
(#11) Also check out the Insulator Pant. It's not calf height but it's minus stirrups and low bulk.
Once again, thank you for conveying your thoughts John and for visiting Way Upstream.
Regarding the pants riding up. I made a pair of neoprene straps from an old pair of waders.
Cut the neoprene about 2" wide, sewed some velcro on and they have been working for some years now (somehow haven't managed to lose them!). I have had stirrup type pants before and am not a fan due to bulk issues around the ankle, plus I can use the neoprene straps with any type of pants I happen to be wearing at the time.
As for knee pads, I would say at make them removeable as was previously suggested, cutting bulk and weight unless you absolutely want the pad is is important to me. Cheers.
Way to take design matters into your own hands BST. Be on the lookout for the new Shelled Insulator Pants coming in July. They have a smooth, tabbed hook and loop closure at the cuff that I think you'll like.
I've seen a few posts here about inside pockets. My Bean's West Branch waders have a zippered inside pocket that I use quite a bit, but I've never liked the zipper idea- it really requires 2 free hands to unzip, which is one more than I usually have available.
I'd prefer a sandwich bag type flap or even a magnetic closure. Even hook and loop would be better than a zipper.
Lots of good suggestions here. I would agree that sizing can be a challenge. My Patagonia waders (1st generation) are too small for me. I had to modify the suspenders so they wouldn't ride-up on me. I used the sizing chart which put me in a small. I should have been in a medium for length, but it probably would have been too bulky around. My other big complaint with my older-style waders is durabilty. This issue seems to have been well addressed in later versions with re-enforced areas. I quickly wore small holes in the knees and butt.
Some hypothetical suggestions: How can we elimate or reduce the STINK? I always hang my waders to dry, but the insides are always pretty rank. Maybe some of the anti-stink technology in new Capilene. Maybe a thin Capilene lining on the inside. Or a wool lined version for colder water like the new Patagonia wetsuits. Could the waistbelts be eliminated by some sort of drawcord/cinch device built into the waders. Something like a gusset or wrap around powder/spray skirt thing built into the inside. You could still roll the top down over it like traditional belts, but it would seal-out water better and be less abtrusive than an external belt.
My other suggestion is not wader related. A fishing wader/wetsuit geared bag. Something that would have mesh panels in the top for breathability, drain holes in the bottom. Also indivudual compartments for boot, wader, extra clothes (a waterproof compartment) and external organizer pockets for reels, flies, board wax, etc.
There's been a few comments on our Wader fabrics so I'll add to the dialogue.
Patagonia wader fabrics are quite unique, the result of many years of formal R&D and good old tweaking. The trick is to create a material that has good abrasion resistance, puncture resistance, breathability, and fast dry times, without letting it get heavy and stiff. It's a hell of a challenge actually. We make the tightest doubleweave face fabrics on the market for puncture and abrasion resistance, and use an incredibly resilient partially self repairing membrane, trying to perfect the package of fabric, membrane, scrim and adhesives that hold it all together. Hundreds of lab and field tests show we have a good balance, but we're always trying to make our fabrics even better. Technically, making a more puncture resistant fabric is possible, but it's difficult to do without making the fabric stiffer which actually creates the worst wear problem of all... edge abrasion along stiff wrinkled or gathered fabric. We have some ideas though and are considering some changes to fabrics and wader design that will make them softer and more durable. Stay tuned. Now back to work.
Big Sky Taku: It's always difficult to get good flexibility with abrasion/puncture resistance. I tend to go to the side of flexibility and being careful on the puncture side, plus keeping a tube of AquaSeal or whatever handy. I have had very good luck with repairs, so my main concern is with seam waterproofness. It's lot's harder to reseal a stretch of seam than a hole in the fabric in my experience. Keeping the seams bombproof is a big one for me.
Randy, thank you for weighing in. Your comments are good for Way Upstream readers to see and I'm sure they appreciate hearing it from the Patagonia Quality Dept. Add your voice as often as you can.
BST, Much attention was paid to making seams "bombproof" and still flexible. Too hard a seam crown can end up being more of a problem than a flexible one. Seams on the Watermaster II's achieve the desired traits and have been moved out of wear zones to prevent crown abrasion. This is a big feature but may not appear obvious.
Hopefully you won't mind a candid review.
I haven't really been happy with the performance of any of the Patagonia fly fishing products I've owned. None of them have been "guide durable." I'm willing to accept that nothing is going to last me more than about a season and a half, but none of the Patagonia items I've owned from waders to wading boots have made it through more than half a season.
Watermaster Waders
(I haven't handled any of the Watermaster 2's so these might have been addressed.)
1. Drop the crazy pocket scheme. It's too easy to leave a zipper on one side open, flip the pocket thinking both are closed, and lose everything inside.
2. Build in a retractor of some kind.
3. Pattern the waders to have downward curves under the armpit to make rowing more comfortable.
4. The button clasps on my watermasters are about as durable as a wet piece of paper.
5. The neoprene/hypalon bootfeet are cut too big.
Riverwalker Boots
I know you're not asking about the Riverwalker boots, but those things are a disaster from the top down.
1. Laces break easily.
2. Felt bottoms come off way prematurely. I've written a letter every time I've returned a pair and thus far there's been no response.
3. Double up the stitching on all the seams.
4. Change the rubber around the toes and heel to a less "grippy" type of rubber. Fly lines stick to the rubber if you're in a situation where the boots aren't underwater.
On a separate but related note, I've sent a number of comments on Patagonia products and have yet to receive any sort of response from Patagonia. I'm not asking for a personalized thank you note, but some sort of confirmation would be nice, otherwise I can't help but feel that I'm wasting my time telling Patagonia anything to improve their products - it's not a one way street. At least you're heading down the right road with the blog.
Candid comments appreciated Ian. Thank you for taking the time to share your views here at Way Upstream. I'm sorry to hear that your former suggestions were met with silence. That won't happen here.
Know that the purpose of this wader post is to gather just these types of comments.
Most of the issues you raise were keenly focused on with the Watermaster II Waders and Riverwalkers. Seams, snaps, fit and booties received the most attention on the wader. The bar has been set on boot sole bond strength too. Review the comment string for some additional details.
Regarding the laces, we use "flat" polyester for minimal water absorption. They stay tied better that cord, especially when wet. Where are you seeing breakage?
Ian, shoot me a separate email when you get a chance. There are some further questions I'd like to ask you about the Patagonia fly-fishing products that you've owned. I want you to be satisfied.
Good luck out there on the water.
Thanks for the input.
Patagonia was the first company to work with Gore Tex as a potential fabric for waders. Tests were done by New Zealand guides and I took a pair to the Russian far east where I wore them to search for Siberian tigers in swamp wet conditions. When I returned I counted over 80 pin holes in the leg area. The NZ guides also had similar experience. We decided then that if we came out with this product we would create a nightmare of returns. So we gave the idea back to Gore, who then worked with Simms.
We went on to develop waders using our own H2No Storm fabric package which we continue to use today, of course in vastly improved versions.
Year in and year out I personally use our waders as much as anyone. More than most guides, because I don't fish from boats and prefer to walk in usually pretty tough terrain - covered with rosa mosqueta in Chile to "devil's club" in British Columbia.
Gore Tex is a laminate put on a face fabric and, when punctured with a rose thorn or a size 22 hook, will leave a clean hole that stays open and results in leaks. Which is why Gore Tex waders must have multiple layers of tough fabric to protect the Gore Tex laminate.
The Patagonia waders are treated with a breatheable waterproof coating which is flexible. So, when you have a tiny puncture from a thorn or even a small hook, the hole seals itself. In the last three years of abusive thrashing around prickly bushes, I've never had to repair one leak.
The other big advantage of Patagonia waders for me is the fact the shoulder straps are attached to the waist part of the wader and I can let the top down when hiking in hot weather. But, best of all, I can relieve my aging prostate without taking off my jacket while it's raining - or even have to get out of the river. No zipper needed!
YC, Thank you for sharing the history behind the Hydrostorm fabric/barrier as well as your personal experiences in the field. I know that Way Upstream readers appreciate it. The information you provided here at Way Upstream can't be found in catalogs, workbooks or on hang tags. These are parts of the story that our customers, pros and guides don't hear. Please continue to join Way Upstrean conversations regularly. Your experience and thoughts are valuable. Thank you once again.
I personally love the watermaster dos waders, I had a pair from patagonia from 99 that i wore until fall of 06. Those waders took years of hard abuse while wet picking cranberries, shuffeling for quahog's with no booties on, and last but not least trying to decieve fish of the northeast multiple times a week. Finally my growth from a young boy to a man forced me to get a new pair of waders, and of course I chose the new watermasters. I LOVE EM! so comfy, tough as nails, and the buttons make all the difference in the world in terms comfort and "relief". One thing I love about patagonia products is the details...in the watermaster II's the light colored reflective material used on the inside help when trying to dig around at night in my waders. SOOO cool! and the same design detail is carried across to their packs as well.
Less is more, and the more pockets and doodads that are added onto fishing items, the worse fisherman we all become. When you take the "whole tackle box" with you, less time is spent analyzing your environment, keeping the fly in the water, etc.
Fishing with only a spool of tippet and a small box of flies is a joy!
Steve keep up the good work, the design ethic in patagonia's products have always been spot on!
Remember to have fun fishing everybody!
Ketan
Good to know that you've got the II's in testing Ketan. Keep me posted on their performance as time goes by. Good luck on the Cape. Get me some pix for a post.
There is an inherent problem of a few sizes fit all in sizing when we go the route of small, medium, large etc. I bought my first set of waders using the criterion of how the legs fit when I was sitting down or crouching. As a result I now buy "longs" to allow for bending at the waist and knees. This sometimes means that the top of the waders is around my neck and that the bootie portion might be a little large.
Bottom line, calculate the longer leg length due to bending and flexing.
No question that fit is critical Wayne. Sizing and grading are where some of the most intensive work happens. Patagonia currently offers 4 sizes in Short, 5 sizes in Regular, 3 sizes in Long and 5 sizes in King for men. For women we offer 5 sizes in Regular and 2 sizes in Full. The suspender system on the "II's" has adjustment on both front and back that allows the wearer to dial in rise and torso comfort. Both our waders (II's and Lights) have articulated knees and we spec enough fabric in the leg to allow for deep knee bending or high stepping but are careful not to have excess. It's a difficult balancing act. Let me know your measuremnets Wayne and I'll suggest where you would be on our scale. Thank you for weighing in.
Out of curiosity, any chance the welded seam technology used on other Patagonia products will be migrated over to waders?
Sorry for the response delay Ian. Welding and gluing has been in testing for two years now (regarding waders). Challenges have been prevalent but ground is being gained. These construction techniques have been very successful in jackets, especially where fabrics are lighter and flexible (look for a new fishing jacket with welded shoulder seams in S8) but wader reinforcement fabric still poses challenges (see Randy Harward's comments)...but we're on it.
One of my pet peaves with waders are the thickness of the neopreme booties. I often fish creeks and walk for miles and I want to wear my hiking shoes. Well by the time you get a pair of socks and the waders on they don't fit.
I also don't like the fact that so many waders are made for fat people. As an outdoor company I would hope that your waders could be sized to fit athletic people too.
And keep the zippers out. For that matter I never understood putting a pocket in them, I pretty much always have a vest on and the pocket is unavailable anyway. Lighter and simpler are better. Let those other guys follow the bloated wader path.
Pet peaves noted Climber. Our team has worked very hard to grade booties so that they fit as cleanly as possible but I'm sure there are customers who will fall outside the lines. Customized bootie options are one of our goals in the short term to address this.
Regarding fit, this is an area that we are proud of as it relates to the Watermaster II and Light Waders. We've got a size range that takes into account diverse body types. Athletic builds will appreciate our REG, SHORT and LONG fit. Bigger folks will like our KING range. I would encourage you to try them and if you do please follow up with comments. If you email me your measurements I'll suggest a target size for you. Note that there is more information/feedback on these wader issues, including zippers, in the comments string.
Lastly with regard to being lightweight, we are beating the competition in our class by pounds, not ounces!
Thank you for weighing in.
just a few comments here - recently stumbled on to this site...
re: Boots. Patagonia wading boots are lightweight, comfortable, and nice to hike in (rocker?), but after having multiple pairs fail I've gone to Brand X. Failure was consistent (two times) at the felt sole to boot attachment point. Why not stitch the felt on? Also, the studs aren't "sticky" Maybe a softer metal would bite better. Also, they could be a little bit bigger. Make a better boot and I will happily switch back. John
Thanks for wading in John. Felt coming unglued has been an area that has dragged down the Patagonia name among guides and other anglers. I've been able to trace the issue to a bad batch of Spring 2005 production felt soled boots. We took steps 6 months ago to recall and replace existing dealer inventories. Our dealers and customer service representatives will take care of any return immediately. Were you able to return your boots without a problem? S6 and S7 styles are exceeding bond strength tests. For S8 a rubber carrier has been added to the bond process plus the felt will be stitched on for added insurance. Our S7 Canyonwalker boot is also exceeding bond strength tests. The current stable of Patagonia wading boots are the lightest in class and as tough as a bag of rocks. Please email me John and let me know if you still have any of the defective Riverwalkers so I can determine if they were S5. If I can be of any service please let me know. I want you back in our gear and satisfied.
Regarding the sizing of waders. As I said earlier, I will pick one criterion, in my case, a longer waist while a friend of mine who is on the stout side goes the "stout" route. When I go with the "long" sizes, often the booty is a size or two larger than I wear. This means that getting the boots on becomes a bit of a chore unless I can soak them first so some sort of gusset in the toe box of the wading boots would be handy.
It would also be beneficial to have a size comparison chart of the various vendors.
It's hard for me to determine if your fit comments pertain to just Patagonia waders or all waders Wayne. Have you tried on our new Watermaster II's? Email me your measurements (chest, waist, inseam, shoe size). I'd like to help.
The wademasters and their predecessor are the best. Patagonia waders in gen. have been the most trouble-free for me. I would have to agree with tom chandler about how they are worn. I would like to add to your video. I always enjoy the ability to roll down when it gets hot, but additionally wad up and tuck my jacket in the the roll around back. It may look mid-evil but it feels like a lumbar support. I have tucked water bottles, italian sub sandwiches, even an extra reel into the roll. Built in 360 fanny pack.
My only request is to find a way to retain durability while utilizing a softer, quiet, and more flexible material. I have an old pair of Simms that fall short in many ways, however I must say they are quite comfortable and quiet. I fished recently with a pal who was wearing a brand new pair of Columbia waders. Yikes, he might as well have worn a hefty bag.
Just a minor issue, Its hard to pick at near perfection.
Excellent feedback Jimmyo. Are you currently in the Watermaster II's?
I'd love to see pix of you with the 360 degree wader roll pack in use.
If you have specific ideas on what you'd like to see in a wader video please share them.
Thank you for your Way Upstream comments.
First, excellent dialogue, it's great to the ability of the user community to comment openly like this. I've been a Patagonia user/fan since I was little and my dad gave me a pre/early Capilene old zip-T of his from Austria -- probably my most treasured piece of gear and I still wear it. For that matter, what year did Capilene come out? I'm guessing this top is 18 years old, kind of like exped weight interior, smooth exterior, really tall collar.
As for my preferences for waders-- it depends. I don't think any one wader can do it all. I like to have an everyday wader -- good fit, tough, maybe some simple frills like a zinger or chest pocket, good gravel guards. Should be able to take abuse, shin, knee, butt and maybe even crotch reinforcements for when you're straddling logs.
On the other hand, I want the simplest and lightest wader possible for backcountry trips. Nothing but the lightest fabric, fabric booties included. I've put countless hours in a Kokatat drysuit with Gore-tex booties scrambling, scouting, portaging and kayaking, with nothing but Teva neoprene booties or Gamma's on, and they are (surprisingly) still OK, and no gear will last forever anyways - warranty replacements would probably be low or relatively cheap for new booties. For gravel guards, maybe something as simple as the newer Silnylon type fabric with a bungee cord and pull-tab closure.
And perhaps just cause I'm fond of bringing a fly rod on extended whitewater trips and am known to fish in a drysuit, maybe an entirely new product along the lines of a 'fly't suit'. A one-piece wader/jacket combo with built in suspenders so you could roll down the jacket top if you wanted. Make it in military green too. I want credit for the name though!
Damon
Thanks for dropping by Damon. I'm very glad that you appreciate the open dialogue. Join the Way Upstream conversations anytime and often. Subscribe if you are so inclined.
First I wanted to comment on the Patagonia impression that your dad made on you. That's a pretty cool story, and even cooler that you are still able to wear that Capilene zip-t that he gave you. Capilene came out in 1985. Just from your description I'm guessing that you have an old expedition weight product. Send me a picture of it if you get a chance. I still own and use a "wallace beery" style "x-wt" piece to this day...and love it.
From your comments about waders I'd say you fit the bill for our current wader styles - Watermaster II and Watermaster Light. Both are lightweight, tough, minimalist and guaranteed. Have you seen or tried either of them?
Now as far as the "fly't suit" idea goes, it may not be as far fetched as you think. Is the market ready for it? That's a question I will ponder.....and if the name is ever needed then you will get the credit.
El P,
I have sent you a pic. Enjoy.
I recently acquired a pair of Watermaster Lights. It's wet wading season on the small stuff here in VT so I haven't tried them yet, but am looking forward to it. I think there is future opportunity there in some minimalist luxuries -- ie, zinger or small chest pocket, or new fabric to make them even more packable.
A Fly't Suit would be a fringe product to test in the market for sure, but that market is also getting younger and younger and style/function preferences are changing. The technology is all in place, question of price point and acceptance of risk really. Thanks for the credit:)
Even though this the wader forum, wanted to drop a note on the Double Haul here too. I like it, but the rod tube attachment doesn't really work that great -- the size of the buckles in relation to the radius/curvature of a tube makes the angle of the webbing going into the buckle too great -- so basically, they won't hold when tightened. You can deal with the issue by always stuffing the back pouch very full, or some SeamGrip on the webbing adds enough friction to keep it from sliding. Would be good to fix that in the future with either smaller buckles, pre-curved buckles, or those rod-tube bungee clips some other manufacturers use.
D
Damon, once you get some time under your Watermaster Light wading belt let me know your feedback.
I did get your picture and it sure looks like an old expedition weight zip-t. I expect that will continue to last you for a while.
Regarding the Double Haul, that product has already undergone some significant redesign. It will hit the market in January 2008. Look forward to seeing it then. Thanks for adding your voice.
Im a fly fishing guide and the perfect wader dosent exist.
If you ask me, what i will look like a Patagonia waders:
- Good quality, like Simms.
-Inovationin Desings, Like Cloudiviel.Maybe try new colors all the waders in the market are the same.But keep it simple, more pokets and details more hevy, more longer takes to dry, less fun for travel with.
-Waders for hard core wading, that means confortable for wadding all the day, and not bulky.Easy for taking of for a leak with out building a zipper.
Ask to the FF guides they will give you lots of info.
I hate waders, any time that the sun is out I do wet wading. So make some products for that, for fishing in a drift boat and wading in the summers of Montana o Patagonia, my land.
Good Luck
Carlos Araya
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Thanks for taking the time to provide wader feedback/advice Carlos. I would like to know if you've tried the Watermaster II Waders. Your comment "comfortable for wading all the day, and not bulky.Easy for taking off for a leak with out building a zipper" describes them well.
Both Watermaster II and Light waders can be turned into waist highs so they do offer drift boat comfort. check out this link to see them in action - http://www.flickr.com/photos/airtaxi/580594286/.
Regarding the competition, I keep a close eye on them all the time. Keep sharing your thoughts on specific features and details. I would appreciate it.
One note on perfection - "In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
-Antoine de Saint-Exupery
I would like to get my 2 cents in for some of the "larger" folks around.
Please do not forget that, despite our 46-48" waist size, there are still people who like 5-6 mile hikes through tundra, brambles, and alder thickets to catch big fish. We're big, not dead! It sure would be nice to have waders, underwear, and jackets that meet the realistic size needs of all folks who like to play in rivers and streams.
I've been a Patagonia fan since college lo' these many years ago and now I find myself being "sized" out. It makes me sad. To see an XXL being considered a 40" waist is ridiculous in today's world. I run, I hike, I mountain bike, I pole a boat, I fly fish. Just as there is a saying that today's age 60 is yesterday's age 40, please ask your designers to take into consideration the fact that biger folks are more active in certain areas than they used to be.
Thanks for listening!
I hear you loud and clear Brian. The 40"-42" size chart range border does limit. I have heard other's 2 cents about fit who are petite, short and tall on occasion. That's why the fishing team offers waders that go beyond "standard sizing" (short, reg, long and king). Have you tried on our Kings? Please let me know.
I will share your comment with the design group. Consider making similar comments on Patagonia's company blog too - www.thecleanestline.com. There are several product posts that you could make your case for "larger" sizes. Thanks for adding your voice here at Way Upstream.
Hi: nice to see you are getting input from your customers, i know you get input from the blue ribbon folks too. So not sure what i can add but here's a couple things, I have your waders and a pair of your boots. I really like the suspenders attached at the waist that lets you fold them down to waist highs. This is a great feature, gives a guide pants/chest waders convertible to chest wader purchaser. So what to improve? Sounds like you've addressed the gravel guards, the elastic in mine is still way to tight. The length never really bothered me as long as they stayed clipped and keep stuff out of my boot. I much prefer having attached gravel guards, even with too tight elastic in them. Don't need to be chasing more gear parts just for my waders.
Don't need zippers in waders.
On the subject of pockets, one of the best uses of pockets is a place to put or hook your hands. One of the most comfortable waders i had were the most comfortable just because i could slide my hands into the handwarmer pouch behind the chest patch pocket. Not because my hands were cold but just because i like putting them there.
Wasn't that big a deal but in a long day on the water suprising how often you just want to hook your hand in and rest your arm a bit. Or if you're standing and talking, its kind of a natural stance to take.
I didn't have any specific use for the small patch pocket itself, which was on top or in front of the h